I live in Barcelona, and during last year’s blackout I wandered through the city. As I passed by the Baix Guinardó gardens, I came across something that felt like a "A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte" brought to life: the park was full of families socialising the old way, children running everywhere, the whole place buzzing with chatter and energy.
Later that day, walking home through darkened streets, I noticed small groups, maybe a dozen people at a time, gathered around certain spots. For some reason, a few closed shops still seemed to have working free Wi-Fi (backup generators, maybe), and people clustered there, drawn in like mosquitoes to light. Their faces glowed in the dark, lit only by their screens, and they stood in near-total silence. It’s hard to describe the feeling, it was surreal. You had to be there.
I’m no Luddite, but I went to sleep that night wondering how on earth we get ourselves out of this.
sph 7 hours ago [-]
Have you ever seen those videos filming London streets in the 1970s? They are absolutely packed with groups of two or three people, not going places, but just standing there, chatting, as if they have nowhere else to be. It is something most of us have never experienced in any form and the change has happened over long enough timescales that we are used to our streets of strangers just going about their lives, the external world just a physical inconvenience to traverse as quickly as possible, not the real world where one just exists.
germinalphrase 6 hours ago [-]
My perspective is very simple: our homes are simply a lot more comfortable than they used to be.
We have better heating/air conditioning, endless television/video games/entertainment, large refrigerators, lower density, etc and so on.
Back then, home covered a narrower set of needs - so the default option was to spend time elsewhere, even if it was just to escape the noise/heat/smells/smoke of home for a minute.
bluefirebrand 47 minutes ago [-]
> our homes are simply a lot more comfortable than they used to be.
Yes. And public spaces are significantly less comfortable (and more expensive) than they used to be
badpun 32 minutes ago [-]
I have plenty of such scenes in my city still, but these people are usually either pensioners, or local unemployed drunks who have an entire day to fill. People with jobs don't hang outside, unless they're with their kids.
tkfoss 5 hours ago [-]
In the past 3 years I got married and got a kid. Both mine and my wifes social situation went 180, and now we are one of those couples you saw in the park. The kids and kid problems become new shared interest, you meet bunch of people, with similar shared experience, and you end up connecting on other fronts as well. eg - I m in high rise, parking next to an interesting winter beater every day for 2 years, and now I know the guy because our wifes meet on the playground. Turns out he also likes 3d printers and CNCs and has many ideas :)
But even before this, through wife and her hobbies (dance, pottery etc) I had chance to meet many people and their partners and through them their friends etc. Then it becomes a choice whether you will get up and go see others or pick your screen.
dingaling 4 hours ago [-]
You are very fortunate. When I took a career break to become daddy-day-care for our child I went to "Parents & Toddlers" groups and found them unwelcoming and suspicious.
Going back to work was a relief, because I was able to actually talk to adults without feeling that they were judging my reasons for being there.
kace91 7 hours ago [-]
Yup, I'm a Spaniard and had a similar feeling. I'm pretty sure that, if the government had proposed an intentional weekly blackout, there would have been a large majority in favor.
I'm currently trying to reduce internet usage by a simple rule: no feeds (try to avoid places where I could even see them).
It's extremely difficult.
YouTube receives you with a feed, every social network as well, even the online version of a newspaper is arguably a feed. It's usually not possible to use a service without having one in frequent sight. Even my weather app tries its best to offer a feed of weather related news, the photo gallery app shows one of memories....
obscurette 7 hours ago [-]
Yes, managing relationships needs time, but there is another problem I see nowadays. When I was young (I'm in my sixties), it was normal to have friends who could be very different from you. They might have had qualities you didn't like at all, but you could still be very good friends. If I look my students (highschool and college level) now, they are extremely intolerant for differences compared to what I remember from my youth. One "I don't like it" problem is enough to dump any relationship. Why? I guess it's because of a lack of practice – you don't really need to interact with so many different people nowadays and interacting with people who are very different from you is just plain terrifying for many.
MarkusQ 7 hours ago [-]
It may be terrifying, but it's also terribly important. If the friendship can't survive differences, you're going to silently censor any points of differences (real or imagined) and soon you're just pretending to be the people you think the other expects you to be. No depth of connection, no growth.
You want someone to be friends with you, as you actually are. And that means you need to be friends with them, as they actually are, even if you worship different brands or vote for different movies.
johnnyanmac 47 minutes ago [-]
>If I look my students (highschool and college level) now, they are extremely intolerant for differences compared to what I remember from my youth. One "I don't like it" problem is enough to dump any relationship. Why?
We became much more polarized in those decades. That one "I don't like it" mentality went from "I think differently about this fiscal policy for solving this issue" to "I'm fine with federal agents terrorizing minorities" or "women are beneath me". These weren't the exact words, but these were some real life statements that more or less said this.
Of course I don't want to assossiate with that kind of person (spoilers: I'm a minority). There are differences I can accept and work with, but there's so many irreconcilable differences said out loud.
nharada 7 hours ago [-]
I’m curious if you think viewpoints have also gotten more extreme in this period. It feels like the gap in political ideologies has widened a lot since I was younger.
obscurette 6 hours ago [-]
The gaps in views are certainly widening in societies in general, but my point wasn't exactly that. It was more about differences which always existed. When I was young I was often dumped into large family gatherings which lasted days (birthdays of (grand)grandparents, funerals, weddings etc). I had to practice handling cousins etc who might had very different family backgrounds than me since very early age. We had to find things we had in common and accept our differences. We learned that differences are manageable. It's not common nowadays. Many people don't have relationships with relatives at all and kids don't meet another kids with different background until school. And even then distance is kept often because of overprotective parenting.
lotsofpulp 7 hours ago [-]
>Why? I guess it's because of a lack of practice – you don't really need to interact with so many different people nowadays and interacting with people who are very different from you is just plain terrifying for many.
It’s not any more or less terrifying than in previous times, but as you wrote “you don’t really need to interact with so many different people”.
I would shorten that to “you don’t need so many people anymore”. Another factor is you can easily find more agree-able people (or bots) to spend time with, such as on this website rather than a neighbor.
throwawaysleep 7 hours ago [-]
Depends? Are those more narrow one’s better and people have a better idea of what ideal looks like?
I’m kind of horrified at people saying they had/have to work at their best friendships as with my best friends, everything is seamless.
There are no misunderstandings. We never have to forgive each other. We never even need to clarify things for each other much, as we are that well aligned.
Granted it may not be possible, but ideally go find a better match in a friend.
MarkusQ 7 hours ago [-]
The axes are independent. You can have seamless friendships with people who are very different from you, and contentious relationships with folks who are just like you (but doing it wrong!)
There's nothing wrong with having to work at friendship. For years I had a friend that I looked up to (and, as it turned out looked up to me). We were both constantly striving to justify the other's faith and respect. It was a lot of work but incredibly valuable for both of us.
paganel 7 hours ago [-]
I see this exact thing right now to me and some (former?) friends, we’re all in our early to mid-40s. And, yes, it does involve politics, and more generally how one sees the world, but I personally find it quite baffling nonetheless. It’s like people really do feel the need to continue living in their intellectual bubble-balls, no dialectics involved, no contradiction, and hence no real (intellectual and not only) move forward.
I can’t and don’t see an easy solution for it, to be honest.
mettamage 8 hours ago [-]
One thing I read on IG that one couple decided to do in NL was what they call "stoepen" ("stoep" is the Dutch word for sidewalk). They'd get some chairs to their front yard, which is connected to the sidewalk, and they'd greet people and start chatting with them. When vibes clicked they'd invite them to come sit with them, until people got in the habit of sometimes coming by and sitting with them.
So there's that. Obviously there are other ways, but thought it'd be fun to share.
Also research on self-disclosure might help. Long story short: be the first to reveal some details about yourself and progressively go deeper to the level that you want, it's kind of a tit for tat type of thing. There was one popular article about it so you could "fall in love" but IMO it's not love, it's simply building a deeper connection. Check it out [1].
I used to be really interested in topics like this, so if you want to know more about it or brainstorm, feel free to reach out. My email is in my profile.
It's still common parlance in New Amsterdam (New York) today. 'Stoopin it' with friends/strangers is thankfully quite alive.
tmp10423288442 49 minutes ago [-]
Although it unfortunately has a downscale connotation, to the point that there are racial slurs referencing it.
ralferoo 8 hours ago [-]
I wonder if that's actually related to the Afrikaans word "stoep", where it's used in the sense of verandah which is obviously where you'd sit outside the house and watch the word go by. Both meanings ultimately come from the original meaning of the word as "step".
mettamage 7 hours ago [-]
I mean...
they are written the same...
And given that it is Afrikaans, I guess so. Afrikaans always reads as "Dutch but it's a puzzle!" to me.
Ah Nice! I read about a couple in I think the Bay Area doing this too, to great effect
germinalphrase 8 hours ago [-]
I would strongly encourage everyone to choose two or three friends and say “hey - I want to chat with you, but it’s hard to schedule calls. I’m just going to try calling you sometime when I have a few minutes free. If you can talk, great! If you can’t, no sweat. Sound OK?”
I lowered the stakes for calling/answering/not answering, and I actually catch up with my friends more often.
darth_avocado 34 minutes ago [-]
> I’m just going to try calling you sometime when I have a few minutes free. If you can talk, great! If you can’t, no sweat. Sound OK?”
I do it all the time. And unfortunately this still only builds shallow relationships or keeps them alive for longer than they would. Proximity is the only thing that keeps things alive. Physical proximity is obvious, but there are other forms of proximity. Regular (almost daily) texts builds online proximity. Being financially in a similar boat brings financial proximity. Being in similar stages in life brings lifestyle proximity. The more you start drifting away (lose proximity in one or more areas), the more the relationship dies. Married people with kids who own houses rarely stay in touch with single people who are traveling the world.
Insanity 7 hours ago [-]
I'd hate that. I have a (small) group of friends, and we play games (almost) every weekend morning for 1-2 hours while on voice chat. I really enjoy that time but we have to schedule it in advance, we all have stuff going on. But we've been pretty good at making time for each other once a week for that time. Most of us are in different countries now so can no longer meet up in person, and this has been something that works for us.
If I'd get randomly called I'd actually just end up being annoyed, I need a sense of structure in my life lol.
MinimalAction 5 hours ago [-]
This is great, thanks for recommending me. Not sure if it'll work given how people could be quite busy, but nothing wrong with trying. No sweat.
germinalphrase 4 hours ago [-]
I have found there’s a reciprocal nature to it. If I keep trying here and there, the friend more often than not does try me back in turn.
Many of us have kids/demanding jobs - so feeling free to just call when I’ve got ten minutes alone in the car means - at minimum - one of us is free at that time.
lynx97 8 hours ago [-]
Remember the old IRC rule? "Don't ask to ask, just ask."
dangond 7 hours ago [-]
"Don't ask to ask, just ask" is great in general, but if I tell someone this, I'm not trying to schedule a single call. It's more asking for permission to call whenever. Depending on who you and your friends are, it can be necessary to give this heads-up at least once so that, as another user put it, they don't get a panic attack from an unexpected phone call. As an older Gen Z, it feels like no one my age really calls each other out-of-the-blue, and you need something like this to establish it.
pcthrowaway 37 minutes ago [-]
I realize there are generational differences but I still default to the assumption that calling people whenever (outside of 10PM-7AM for non-emergencies) is fine, unless someone specifically tells me otherwise
righthand 8 hours ago [-]
I just call them. I dont think you have to reach out and send a “hey I have question is it okay to ask”-style entering-the-chat messages. The overarching problem is that everyone started treating communication as a formal business letter.
mettamage 28 minutes ago [-]
Yea me too. Calling with my friends is actually a big part of my friendship
germinalphrase 7 hours ago [-]
I agree, but the social norm (for a lot of young people) is not to call spontaneously - at all, ever. Giving people a heads up helps, and then consistently following through, is a step that helps make it happen.
righthand 3 hours ago [-]
Nah, just call them randomly and leave a message. I’m not going to have a whole social protocol for sending a phone call. If they don’t answer or call back it’s a lost cause communicating with them.
I once dated someone who “didn’t just leave the house for any old outing” and it became exhausting trying to figure out the protocol for what qualified as a worthwhile outing. It was easier to just dump the person instead of playing this little “no you’re holding it wrong” game of comms.
germinalphrase 1 hours ago [-]
You’re overthinking my recommendation. It’s a one-time comment to set expectations. Nothing more.
johnnyanmac 41 minutes ago [-]
>If they don’t answer or call back it’s a lost cause communicating with them.
I mean, people are busy and schedules don't always align. Seems like the onus is on you if you expect another friend to answer whenever you feel like calling. Even with my parents we will check with each other via text before we call (being on a time zone difference doesn't help)
specproc 8 hours ago [-]
I've just moved to a new town, and my social life is kicking.
Found a local computer club, crew of lads tinkering and using open source software. Really nice, smart bunch. I'm learning loads and appreciating their company.
OP found this lacking, because it's not working fast enough and he's not getting enough time with people.
I totally agree putting in time with old friends is always worth it (maybe not through surprise calls) but on a local level, I'd encourage patience.
Things take time, friendship isn't something you can just switch on. It takes years, and that's the point. It's a journey, not a destination.
baby 7 hours ago [-]
Really good post! My own thoughts:
- making new friends does take a massive amount of time, not just in finding friends but also in spending time with them until you can call them long-time friends
- so you need to invest time in hanging out with people! Even when you don’t know what to say to them or when it’s awkward or when you’re not sure if you like them much. We weren’t picky when we were kids making friends, we just hung out a lot with whoever wanted to hang out
- this also means make yourself available. Romantic partners, new jobs, as well as kids basically destroy your free time, but lots of it is self inflicted. Make sure you don’t seclude yourself and prioritize hanging out with people
- also, it’s a number game, you should meet a lot of people if you want to eventually have a strong group of friends
- one trick is to organize a house party or some gathering once a week, on the same day, and invite everyone you know, and ask them to invite more people as well
- make sure you also spend time doing nothing with friends. Like watching tv and sitting on the couch. That’s how you used to create friendships as a kid, you just “hang”, you didn’t “go to the restaurant and went home afterwards”
majora2007 7 hours ago [-]
idk about a house party once a week, but I do like the idea of having my friends invite their other friends. As I age, it becomes harder to find new friends just by happenstance. Friends of Friends usually end up becoming friends after meeting them.
dhbradshaw 7 hours ago [-]
- making new friends does take a massive amount of time
I think the solution to this is to enjoy the journey. There's not a line that someone needs to cross before you can enjoy spending time with them. Just reach out and learn and enjoy people from the beginning.
lp4v4n 7 hours ago [-]
Society is getting materialistic and cynical to toxic levels as the standards of living and the perspective of future further deteriorate.
People feel overworked, tired and out of money.
This general malaise spills on almost every type of social interaction, including friendships unfortunately.
johnnyanmac 50 minutes ago [-]
That is a low key point the author touched on but never really expanded upon.
>It could be that I had my second kid in 2024 or that 2024 marked 5 years of working remotely.
The kids vs. single divide is real, and I don't think it needs much more elaboration.
Working remotely definitely has its costs, though. There's lots of discussions these days about 3rd places, and remote work more or less removes your "second place". We don't just drop by people's houses unannounced anymore, so that leaves zero places for friendhips to naturally form post school. It's definitely one thing I miss most about an in-office job.
To coworking initiative is a nice way to get some "company", but I imagine most people will still ultimately be focusing on doing work. So it's not quite the 2nd nor 3rd place the author desires.
As for me, it's pretty straightforward: I'm underemployed and am spending any down time applying to jobs. Not much time to hang out. I'm busy trying to survive first.
ZpJuUuNaQ5 3 hours ago [-]
When I was about 10 years old it dawned on me that "friendship" is a really unclear, mutual agreement, and if you consider someone your friend, they might not consider you theirs (or at the very least, not on the same level of "friendliness") and vice versa. What does it even mean to be or have a "friend"? It's such a silly thing, but it permanently changed the way I looked at social connections. I never had "friends" ever since and don't feel like I am missing out on anything.
nephihaha 3 hours ago [-]
Meet in person. Rule no. 1.
Language can be a barrier, but not insurmountable.
Also that lockdown destroyed many social connections and it is up to each and every one of us to take the initiative instead of expecting it to happen to us.
metalliqaz 7 hours ago [-]
I have thought alot about making friends and why it's so hard. I keep coming back to the same question.
In myself I find I can't seem to muster the motivation to spend enough time with someone that it would take to form a friendship. I want to have friends, but I don't care to know any of these people. I just don't like anyone that much. The question is, am I just inherently a cynical asshole? Or, has modern life done something to me that it has also done to everyone else?
johnnyanmac 38 minutes ago [-]
> Or, has modern life done something to me that it has also done to everyone else?
it's a mix of life moves and mismatched schedules, as well as some people simply being flaky. It's hard to make friends if you're always moving around for your job, and jobs are less stable than ever (be it willfully with job hops, or unwillfully with layoffs). So it happens a lot more.
And yeah, I think "flake culture" makes it harder to form gatherings when you're still forming that friendship. Some people just have other stuff in life (be it in or out of their control), but they never bother communicating it. So with that radio silence, you can't do much.
buzarchitect 4 hours ago [-]
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Simulacra 7 hours ago [-]
I read an outstanding quote in a Brad Thor novel that I think speaks volumes about how to make friends:
"Faith comes from trust, which comes from time, and experience"
With the Internet, and social media, it can feel like we have friends when we really don't. But what social media etc. has robbed from us is that before, we had to spend time with people, we had experience with them, and over time they led to trust, and friendship. That's how people made friends before. Now we don't put that much effort into friendships because we think we already have friends because we see them on Facebook.
hrdwdmrbl 8 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately many people now strongly dislike receiving unexpected phone calls. You may (i have) genuinely upset some people by calling them. Yes, I’m rolling my eyes too, but that’s how they feel
lowdude 8 hours ago [-]
That was my first thought as well, and I am one of those people. I strongly dislike being called, especially unexpectedly, and much prefer a quick text message to maybe meet up in person, if the opportunity presents itself (e.g. if one of us happens to be in the town of the other one)
drzaiusx11 8 hours ago [-]
At this point in my life if someone I actually know irl calls out of the blue, it induces anxiety as it's a very non-zero chance someone has died...
chrisweekly 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah, that's one of the reasons calls out of the blue are mostly reserved for emergencies in my family and friend group. Texts eliminate that factor, and are more polite. A phone call represents immediacy / urgency ("this merits interrupting whatever you might be doing right now"). A text like "hey are you free for a quick call?" lets the recipient pivot from what they're doing and engage on their terms. IMHO it's more considerate.
groby_b 7 hours ago [-]
You're about one step away from sending an email to ask if you can send a text to ask if you can make a phone call.
It's not "more considerate" - you can ignore a phone call the same you can ignore a text. It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only. That's perfectly fine to ask for, but it doesn't help with making friendships easy.
Insanity 7 hours ago [-]
Disagree with this. Sending a text saying "Can we call when you're free" is more considerate of the other persons time than a random call. It sounds like you're trying to make it sound absurd by your 'send an email to send a text', rather than focus on _why_ the text makes sense.
chrisweekly 4 hours ago [-]
Thanks, yes, exactly. (I didn't respond to parent bc borderline trolling.)
FWIW, when I do make the occasional unexpected call, I make sure to start the call with "sorry to interrupt, everyone's fine, got a sec?" or similar.
Contra the other commenter's assertion, phone calls to friends and family are typically NOT as easily ignored as texts, precisely because they're not screened. Close friends and family leave themselves open to direct contact largely to account for potential emergencies. Their phone is going to ring and/or buzz, and (for at least some number of seconds) they won't know why. During which time they might reasonably fear it's terrible news. So you're starting the interaction by having interrupted and scared them. For no good reason. Failure to understand this is maybe just a sign of immaturity. Live long enough to be on the receiving end of such calls and it'll hopefully register.
johnnyanmac 33 minutes ago [-]
texts and emails are asynchronous. If they want to email me to call me, sure. I'd find it weird, but it's just as accessible as a text.
>It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only.
no, it's compromise. Maybe they're free right now. maybe they are swamped all day with work or errands. Calling out of the blue is asking people to optimize for my convenience.
lotsofpulp 7 hours ago [-]
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Insanity 7 hours ago [-]
100% this. Apart from my SO and scammers, no one randomly calls me. If my brother would call me out of the blue I'd assume the worst. (Also, the one random call I vividly remember getting the past years is my mom calling me to let me know my grandfather unexpectedly passed away).
It's just needlessly anxiety-inducing. Not to mention it's a major inconvenience to interrupt someone randomly for a chat.
c22 7 hours ago [-]
Man, this is the opposite for me. I'm filled with a great sense of relief any time my phone rings and I recognize the number...
righthand 7 hours ago [-]
That’s the reason I started reaching out to old friends. A friend had died and I knew no one else would tell them. One I even had to track down through email and ask for their new phone number. But now that I’m in regular contact I find calling easier and I don’t have worst-case-scenario fears anymore.
johnnyanmac 36 minutes ago [-]
For my demographic (late millenial), calls imply urgency. Like, if I see a call from a friend out of the blue I'm worried something dire happened.
Texting is fine. We can schedule a call or meetup from there. But life as is is already so spontaneous, I don't need even more stuff to come up.
baby 7 hours ago [-]
One alternative is voice recordings on whatsapp!
gregoriol 7 hours ago [-]
This is the worst: people who use them hate the receiver
7 hours ago [-]
drzaiusx11 8 hours ago [-]
Spam phone calls have become so horrendously common here in the US (multiple a day) that I just keep my mobile on do not disturb 24/7 with exceptions for those in my core contact group. Maybe I'll miss a call or two that actually had substance, but I'd rather be slightly more isolated than constantly annoyed. Find me on various online platforms with text chat, voice or video if you really want to reach me. Or don't.
alex_suzuki 7 hours ago [-]
Same here. Spam calls have really picked up these last couple of years, I also get multiple per day. Here in Switzerland you need to register with your ID to get a mobile phone number, but somehow these spam callers still manage to appear to be calling from a mobile phone, which used to be a strong signal for “not spam”.
It’s gotten so bad that I completely ignore unknown numbers, except if I’m expecting a call. This has its own downsides of course.
Tragedy of the commons. :-(
Maybe call screening can help, but at least on iOS it isn’t available yet here.
righthand 7 hours ago [-]
Ridiculous how that ticked up in frequency (at least for me) after the last Potus election.
johnnyanmac 29 minutes ago [-]
Did you get laid off over the year? My spams always skyrocket on a job search. Just shows you what they are really doing with your resume (despite my LinkedIn profile being 15 years old and mostly updated. It's not hard to get my resume).
Also, AI acceleration the last few years. most of the calls I do answer are clearly fake voices trying to sound real, as opposed to some TTY.
metalman 8 hours ago [-]
many people are now unable to discuss personal things at all, as I have a small business that is growing, I have interviewed hundreds of people seeking employment, and flat out refuse to even talk about resumes or past qualifications, as what counts in this case is an ability to comunicate verbaly about a combination of technical specifications, and then the mundane details of achiving them, so a verbal interview,that focuses on there full skill sets, and youth, mentors, and other influenced, many choke and hand up, sputter and repeat the speel they have practiced, one in 50 can
roll with it cheerfully.
johnnyanmac 27 minutes ago [-]
I feel that's more an issue in a job interview. You want to use every minute to make yourself look good, and the general "wisdom" is that employers don't care about your hobbies or social life or passions. They want someone to do the job right now.
charlie0 8 hours ago [-]
I wonder what is driving this. I too sense that people are really guarded these days. For me, I work remotely and it's hard to build true rapport through Slack.
johnnyanmac 26 minutes ago [-]
Why would I open up on a company chat? I don't want my life on record to be used against me by HR later on. I'll tell some friendly coworkers about vacation details, but certainly not on a paper trail.
righthand 7 hours ago [-]
Lack of barrier breaking. Fewer people call and talk outside of slack so it becomes the norm to not talk outside of slack. When you do it seems weird. Break the norm.
pino83 7 hours ago [-]
One thing that I've learned from my friends in the last 10 years:
You can either have deep friendships XOR children.
All of them are either still without children, or are by no means valuable friends anymore.
Sorry, but that's just how it is.
jujube3 15 minutes ago [-]
Parents want to hang out with other parents.
alex_suzuki 7 hours ago [-]
For me, kids have had a “filtering” effect. Where previously I had a lot of friends (including shallow ones), having less time and being less flexible in general compressed my circle of friends to just a few people with whom I share both a deeper connection and a mutual understanding that the pressures of life sometimes get between us, and that’s ok.
And as another commenter mentioned, kids do grow older…
pino83 6 hours ago [-]
You might confirm or not. As far as I observe it, the "deeper connection" is virtually always with other parents. And this is exactly the connection. Without children, it's neither possible nor attractive to be one of these persons.
alex_suzuki 4 hours ago [-]
It’s true for me, and probably for most parents, that connecting with other parents via the shared experience of haing kids is easy: there’s always something to talk about. But I also find that for me, both parties having kids is simply not enough for it to click!
I knew my close friends from before I had kids, the connection was already there.
I agree that making new friends across the “kids barrier” is hard. You just live in different worlds.
organsnyder 56 minutes ago [-]
We've become really close friends with a couple of families on our block. It definitely helps that we all have kids the same age, but a big reason for this is that our kids entertain each other, freeing the adults (most of the time) to interact with each other.
I also sing in a small choir that is as much a friend group as it is a music ensemble. Most of us have kids, but not everyone; while I can't speak for those in the group without kids, I think one reason it works so well is because none of us have parenting responsibilities while we're together as a choir (we joke that rehearsals are a great time for us to escape from our families).
fnordlord 7 hours ago [-]
If it helps, I've found hosting a pizza night to be a really easy way to have some good hang time with friends. I make the pizza and it's good enough to be free dinner for them. The kids get to participate by customizing their pies. We all catch up for an hour or two in the kitchen, watching me scramble and make a mess. If somebody brings over a bottle of wine, even better.
pino83 6 hours ago [-]
Yes, I'm sure that works. It's just not my cup of tea. Instead of doing that, I could just watch TV. And I'm really not a TV enthusiast.
johnnyanmac 20 minutes ago [-]
>Instead of doing that, I could just watch TV.
That's not really a single vs. married divide there. That's just how you prioritize your energy in life.
johnnyanmac 22 minutes ago [-]
Parents by necessity need to prioritize their kid. Hard to relate when you're single. So I understand why parents seek out other parents; they have a common talking point built in for an icebreaker.
At the same time, that very much is cultural. We think we need to raise children alone, and that's very much not the case in many societies. Good friends (even single) would be part of the family and help out with looking after or playing with the kids. Basically an uncle/aunt.
MarkusQ 7 hours ago [-]
Hang in there. As the kids get older, "XOR" can turn into "WITH".
GJim 7 hours ago [-]
Disappointing somebody has seen fit to "drive-by" downvote your post that simply describes your truthful personal observations.
Presumably they don't want to engage in discussion, which is precisely what this topic is about!
pino83 30 minutes ago [-]
Well, quite often I think this way but resist to say so. This time it's even more obvious, though: They all know that I'm right. Everybody knows. That's not the point why they downvote.
Later that day, walking home through darkened streets, I noticed small groups, maybe a dozen people at a time, gathered around certain spots. For some reason, a few closed shops still seemed to have working free Wi-Fi (backup generators, maybe), and people clustered there, drawn in like mosquitoes to light. Their faces glowed in the dark, lit only by their screens, and they stood in near-total silence. It’s hard to describe the feeling, it was surreal. You had to be there.
I’m no Luddite, but I went to sleep that night wondering how on earth we get ourselves out of this.
We have better heating/air conditioning, endless television/video games/entertainment, large refrigerators, lower density, etc and so on.
Back then, home covered a narrower set of needs - so the default option was to spend time elsewhere, even if it was just to escape the noise/heat/smells/smoke of home for a minute.
Yes. And public spaces are significantly less comfortable (and more expensive) than they used to be
But even before this, through wife and her hobbies (dance, pottery etc) I had chance to meet many people and their partners and through them their friends etc. Then it becomes a choice whether you will get up and go see others or pick your screen.
Going back to work was a relief, because I was able to actually talk to adults without feeling that they were judging my reasons for being there.
I'm currently trying to reduce internet usage by a simple rule: no feeds (try to avoid places where I could even see them).
It's extremely difficult.
YouTube receives you with a feed, every social network as well, even the online version of a newspaper is arguably a feed. It's usually not possible to use a service without having one in frequent sight. Even my weather app tries its best to offer a feed of weather related news, the photo gallery app shows one of memories....
You want someone to be friends with you, as you actually are. And that means you need to be friends with them, as they actually are, even if you worship different brands or vote for different movies.
We became much more polarized in those decades. That one "I don't like it" mentality went from "I think differently about this fiscal policy for solving this issue" to "I'm fine with federal agents terrorizing minorities" or "women are beneath me". These weren't the exact words, but these were some real life statements that more or less said this.
Of course I don't want to assossiate with that kind of person (spoilers: I'm a minority). There are differences I can accept and work with, but there's so many irreconcilable differences said out loud.
It’s not any more or less terrifying than in previous times, but as you wrote “you don’t really need to interact with so many different people”.
I would shorten that to “you don’t need so many people anymore”. Another factor is you can easily find more agree-able people (or bots) to spend time with, such as on this website rather than a neighbor.
I’m kind of horrified at people saying they had/have to work at their best friendships as with my best friends, everything is seamless.
There are no misunderstandings. We never have to forgive each other. We never even need to clarify things for each other much, as we are that well aligned.
Granted it may not be possible, but ideally go find a better match in a friend.
There's nothing wrong with having to work at friendship. For years I had a friend that I looked up to (and, as it turned out looked up to me). We were both constantly striving to justify the other's faith and respect. It was a lot of work but incredibly valuable for both of us.
I can’t and don’t see an easy solution for it, to be honest.
So there's that. Obviously there are other ways, but thought it'd be fun to share.
Also research on self-disclosure might help. Long story short: be the first to reveal some details about yourself and progressively go deeper to the level that you want, it's kind of a tit for tat type of thing. There was one popular article about it so you could "fall in love" but IMO it's not love, it's simply building a deeper connection. Check it out [1].
I used to be really interested in topics like this, so if you want to know more about it or brainstorm, feel free to reach out. My email is in my profile.
[1] https://36questionsinlove.com/
they are written the same...
And given that it is Afrikaans, I guess so. Afrikaans always reads as "Dutch but it's a puzzle!" to me.
https://supernuclear.substack.com/p/stoop-coffee-how-a-simpl...
I lowered the stakes for calling/answering/not answering, and I actually catch up with my friends more often.
I do it all the time. And unfortunately this still only builds shallow relationships or keeps them alive for longer than they would. Proximity is the only thing that keeps things alive. Physical proximity is obvious, but there are other forms of proximity. Regular (almost daily) texts builds online proximity. Being financially in a similar boat brings financial proximity. Being in similar stages in life brings lifestyle proximity. The more you start drifting away (lose proximity in one or more areas), the more the relationship dies. Married people with kids who own houses rarely stay in touch with single people who are traveling the world.
If I'd get randomly called I'd actually just end up being annoyed, I need a sense of structure in my life lol.
Many of us have kids/demanding jobs - so feeling free to just call when I’ve got ten minutes alone in the car means - at minimum - one of us is free at that time.
I once dated someone who “didn’t just leave the house for any old outing” and it became exhausting trying to figure out the protocol for what qualified as a worthwhile outing. It was easier to just dump the person instead of playing this little “no you’re holding it wrong” game of comms.
I mean, people are busy and schedules don't always align. Seems like the onus is on you if you expect another friend to answer whenever you feel like calling. Even with my parents we will check with each other via text before we call (being on a time zone difference doesn't help)
Found a local computer club, crew of lads tinkering and using open source software. Really nice, smart bunch. I'm learning loads and appreciating their company.
OP found this lacking, because it's not working fast enough and he's not getting enough time with people.
I totally agree putting in time with old friends is always worth it (maybe not through surprise calls) but on a local level, I'd encourage patience.
Things take time, friendship isn't something you can just switch on. It takes years, and that's the point. It's a journey, not a destination.
- making new friends does take a massive amount of time, not just in finding friends but also in spending time with them until you can call them long-time friends
- so you need to invest time in hanging out with people! Even when you don’t know what to say to them or when it’s awkward or when you’re not sure if you like them much. We weren’t picky when we were kids making friends, we just hung out a lot with whoever wanted to hang out
- this also means make yourself available. Romantic partners, new jobs, as well as kids basically destroy your free time, but lots of it is self inflicted. Make sure you don’t seclude yourself and prioritize hanging out with people
- also, it’s a number game, you should meet a lot of people if you want to eventually have a strong group of friends
- one trick is to organize a house party or some gathering once a week, on the same day, and invite everyone you know, and ask them to invite more people as well
- make sure you also spend time doing nothing with friends. Like watching tv and sitting on the couch. That’s how you used to create friendships as a kid, you just “hang”, you didn’t “go to the restaurant and went home afterwards”
I think the solution to this is to enjoy the journey. There's not a line that someone needs to cross before you can enjoy spending time with them. Just reach out and learn and enjoy people from the beginning.
People feel overworked, tired and out of money.
This general malaise spills on almost every type of social interaction, including friendships unfortunately.
>It could be that I had my second kid in 2024 or that 2024 marked 5 years of working remotely.
The kids vs. single divide is real, and I don't think it needs much more elaboration.
Working remotely definitely has its costs, though. There's lots of discussions these days about 3rd places, and remote work more or less removes your "second place". We don't just drop by people's houses unannounced anymore, so that leaves zero places for friendhips to naturally form post school. It's definitely one thing I miss most about an in-office job.
To coworking initiative is a nice way to get some "company", but I imagine most people will still ultimately be focusing on doing work. So it's not quite the 2nd nor 3rd place the author desires.
As for me, it's pretty straightforward: I'm underemployed and am spending any down time applying to jobs. Not much time to hang out. I'm busy trying to survive first.
Language can be a barrier, but not insurmountable.
Also that lockdown destroyed many social connections and it is up to each and every one of us to take the initiative instead of expecting it to happen to us.
In myself I find I can't seem to muster the motivation to spend enough time with someone that it would take to form a friendship. I want to have friends, but I don't care to know any of these people. I just don't like anyone that much. The question is, am I just inherently a cynical asshole? Or, has modern life done something to me that it has also done to everyone else?
it's a mix of life moves and mismatched schedules, as well as some people simply being flaky. It's hard to make friends if you're always moving around for your job, and jobs are less stable than ever (be it willfully with job hops, or unwillfully with layoffs). So it happens a lot more.
And yeah, I think "flake culture" makes it harder to form gatherings when you're still forming that friendship. Some people just have other stuff in life (be it in or out of their control), but they never bother communicating it. So with that radio silence, you can't do much.
"Faith comes from trust, which comes from time, and experience"
With the Internet, and social media, it can feel like we have friends when we really don't. But what social media etc. has robbed from us is that before, we had to spend time with people, we had experience with them, and over time they led to trust, and friendship. That's how people made friends before. Now we don't put that much effort into friendships because we think we already have friends because we see them on Facebook.
It's not "more considerate" - you can ignore a phone call the same you can ignore a text. It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only. That's perfectly fine to ask for, but it doesn't help with making friendships easy.
FWIW, when I do make the occasional unexpected call, I make sure to start the call with "sorry to interrupt, everyone's fine, got a sec?" or similar.
Contra the other commenter's assertion, phone calls to friends and family are typically NOT as easily ignored as texts, precisely because they're not screened. Close friends and family leave themselves open to direct contact largely to account for potential emergencies. Their phone is going to ring and/or buzz, and (for at least some number of seconds) they won't know why. During which time they might reasonably fear it's terrible news. So you're starting the interaction by having interrupted and scared them. For no good reason. Failure to understand this is maybe just a sign of immaturity. Live long enough to be on the receiving end of such calls and it'll hopefully register.
>It's merely asking other people to optimize for you convenience only.
no, it's compromise. Maybe they're free right now. maybe they are swamped all day with work or errands. Calling out of the blue is asking people to optimize for my convenience.
It's just needlessly anxiety-inducing. Not to mention it's a major inconvenience to interrupt someone randomly for a chat.
Texting is fine. We can schedule a call or meetup from there. But life as is is already so spontaneous, I don't need even more stuff to come up.
Also, AI acceleration the last few years. most of the calls I do answer are clearly fake voices trying to sound real, as opposed to some TTY.
You can either have deep friendships XOR children.
All of them are either still without children, or are by no means valuable friends anymore.
Sorry, but that's just how it is.
I agree that making new friends across the “kids barrier” is hard. You just live in different worlds.
I also sing in a small choir that is as much a friend group as it is a music ensemble. Most of us have kids, but not everyone; while I can't speak for those in the group without kids, I think one reason it works so well is because none of us have parenting responsibilities while we're together as a choir (we joke that rehearsals are a great time for us to escape from our families).
That's not really a single vs. married divide there. That's just how you prioritize your energy in life.
At the same time, that very much is cultural. We think we need to raise children alone, and that's very much not the case in many societies. Good friends (even single) would be part of the family and help out with looking after or playing with the kids. Basically an uncle/aunt.
Presumably they don't want to engage in discussion, which is precisely what this topic is about!